Posts by moggy lover

6

The Importance of Good Punctuation

by Clam in

dear john: .

i want a man who knows what love is all about.

you are generous, kind, thoughtful.

moggy lover

OK, here's one I picked up somewhere along the walk of life:

That that is is that that is not is not is it it is

Which becomes:

That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is it? It is.

Cheers

137

New World Translation Brackets!!

by gold_morning in

for what it is worth i wanted to pass this along.. we are all aware of those convienient brackets used in the new world translation.

the infamous colossians 1:16....."because by means of him all ((((other)))))) things were created...".

at the very bottom of the first page of their bible ...the foreword.... it says.

Thanks for your post, Mondo 1 and let me say how much it has helped in broading my understanding of Pauls argument in Colossians 1. If I understand your point of view please tell me if I am wrong in summarizing your viewpoint as follows:

You feel that the NWT is justified in applying the word "other" in the text at Col 1 because:

1 Other translations do so. I recall you mentioning two such versions, NIV and NASV

2 Col 1:15 is a partitive genitive, hence making Christ a part of the creation of which He is the prwtotokos - in fact you point out that prwtotokos is always so used

3 I am not sure about why the text at Jo 14:9 was used, except insofar as you are demonstating that word-for-word translations are impossible in converting one language to another, especially if the receptor language has a different cultural milleu

4 You suggest that Col 1:20 is exclusive rather than inclusive in its thrust, in other words, I gather that you understand this verse to refer to at least one thing being excluded from its meaning, Christ Himself

1 I am not aware of any translation ever using the word "other" as an insertion for the either the term "panta" or the even more emphatic "Ta Panta" indeed, the very nature of Ta panta can only refer to "every single thing". I am not saying that the translations you mention, NIV and NASV dont do this, I am merely saying that I am not aware of this. If you have examples of this please let us know. I am aware that the RSV uses "other" at Lu 13:2, but this is because it is contrasting "All Galileans'' - pantas tous Galillaious - with "the Galileans" in a complete context. The JB reads similarly.

A similar contrast is found in Phil 2:21, where "Timothy" is contarsted with "All" the ones Paul is discussing. Hence JB has "other'' here as well.

The proof you are going to have to provide for us, to justify the use of "other" at Col1:15, is to indicate that somehow Paul is contrasting Christ as "Prwtotokos paseis ktisews" to something else. To suggest that, because the RSV uses "other" at Lu 21:3 it therefore somehow justifies the NWT in insertng the word here is sloppy reasoning. You will need to show at least one translation that employs "Other'' here.

2 Is Col 1:15 a partive genitive? Or is it a genitive of comparison? Probably - to both questions. Prof A S Peake writing in the Expositor's Greek NT says: "Grammatically it is possible to make "Paseis ktisews" a partitive genitive, but this is excluded by the context which sharply distinguishes between the Son and "ta Panta" For Paul to have this idea [partitive genitive] he would have probably used "prwtoktistos" The genitive is therfore commonly explained as a genitive of comparison" [Vol 3, pg 503]

Further, the Partitive genitive would be possible if the Chronological view of "prwtotokos" was in effect here. As both Narkissos and Leolaia have pointed out, the idea of prwtotokos here is one of pre-eminence, not time. It is true that everywhere else "prwtotokos" may be considered patitive, but this is precisely because it is chronological. You need to the show this here, not assume it.

3 The interrogative of Jo 14:19, used as a present tense in the Greek, is in fact talking of an acommplished fact, hence effectively a historic present, which in English is correctly translated as a perfect, ie "have"

4 I tend to agree with Nark at Col 1:20, in that there is nothing in the context to suggest the loosening of the thrust of "ta panta" here. Is is far more probable that Paul was inferring that in Christ there is to be a reconciliation of "every single thing" rather than the exclusion of at least one ''thing'' Christ Himself

Thanks for the post, keep well

Cheers

17

For the love of Pets (fluff)

by restrangled in

jw
friends

moggy lover

You were saying..........?

15

Publication Authors?

by Shepherd Book in

this is my first post here ever.

i was hoping some may be able to tell me the author(s) of any of the watchtower books - especially those from the last couple of decades.

if you can back it up with anything, that'd be great, too.. thanks..

moggy lover

Not actually having met the man, I am unable to speak with any authority on the background, scholarastic or otherwise, of George Gangas. However based on a conversation I had with the late Dr Walter Martin, in ' 84 when he visited Australia on a lecture tour, I recall him saying that Gangas was not in fact a Greek, but an ethnic Turk of Orthodox Christian origin and that he immigrated with his parents to America at an early age. Whether in fact this meant he studied in America or not, is something I cannot confirm. One may consult a web site called contender ministries.com, which may have some more information

By most accounts given through those who knew him, Gangas was a pleasant and generally hard working member of the GB. But this in no way "qualified" him to either "translate" the NT or even "assist" in its "translation" since it it is also well known that he had no working knowledge or understanding of NT Greek, either formally or informally. What made him indispensible in the transmission of the NWT was the fact that he was a totally commited Org man. Anyway, this still does not answer how he could possibly have "assisted" in the the "translation" of the OT, based as it is, on Hebrew and Chaldee originals. If his aquaintance with NT Greek was remote, his comprehension of Hebrew was non existant.

I undertook a course in NT Greek in Bible College night school, over an eighteen month period covering the course of Greek 1 over three semesters, and I would tremble to even contemplate such an undertaking as translating even a portion of the Bible, like the NT. Somehow the very idea is obscene. Yet these men with even less attachment to scolasticism have had no such compunctions, and it is this which make their "translation" such an obscenity.

Cheers

22

trinity

by inactive in jersey in

hi, i became inactive fifteen years ago.

there is a lot that i just don't believe.

that is why i left.

moggy lover

Yes, I do.

My own personal feeling is that you either "have" it or you dont. You cant "learn" it nor can you fully "understand" it. If you place "rationality" above "revelation" then you will never "have" it, no matter what is said. If you accept "revelation" in all its aspects, you will "have" it no matter what is said.

We will never "know" this side of eternity, what the reality is, we are called upon only to "believe"

Take it or leave it.

The choice is yours and have a nice day.

Cheers

15

Publication Authors?

by Shepherd Book in

this is my first post here ever.

i was hoping some may be able to tell me the author(s) of any of the watchtower books - especially those from the last couple of decades.

if you can back it up with anything, that'd be great, too.. thanks..

moggy lover

Hi, Shepherd Book and welcome to JWD.

As has been mentioned above, all WTS publications are now being published anonymously. Evidently the reason for this is a need for the WTS to display "modesty" and the lack of wanting to gain the spotlight. This seems rich, seeing that it is coming from a bunch of self-serving arrogant lunatics obsessed with the notion of exclusive divine sanction. The more plausible reason appears to be to make research into WT "scholarship" impossible, thus avoiding accontability and public scrutiny.

Up to 1942, all WT books were published with an author's name, usually the head honcho of the time, either Russell, or Rutherford. Since 1942, with the publication of the book "The New World" - which purported to be a commentary on the book of Job - the policy changed and it was published anonymously, this policy has remained ever since. It is evident, however, that since he was considered, by the WTS at least, to be God's "oracle" on earth, most of the books published between 1942 - 1969 were written by Fred Franz, the 4th WT president.

Ray Franz, his nephew, and one intimately connected with the inner workings of the WTS since he was a former member of the inner sanctum called the Governing Body, informs us, in his book "Crisis of Conscience" pg 61, that his uncle authored the book "Life Everlasting in the Freedom of the Sons of God" published in 1966. Other defectors from behind the WTS "iron curtain" have revealed that Franz also wrote the excreable "Babylon the Great has Fallen" published in 1963.

Several web sites reveal the names of the New World Translation "committee". This WTS slanted Bible "translation" was essentially the work of Freddy Franz who was "largely self-taught" in Bible languages. He was assisted by a committee comprising: Milton Henschel, Nathan Knorr, Hayden Covington, George Gangas, Albert Schroeder, and Grant Suiter. As to how these looney toon characters could be of any "assistance" to Franz is a mystery more obtuse than the Trinity, since none of them could tell a Greek Alpha from a leg of pork. Far from being Greek scholars, they could be best described as geek scholars!

Since 1970, WTS books have been written by groups of writers rather than a single author. A twenty man [''person'' actually, since we know of at least one woman, Barbara Anderson in this group] "writing department" under the oversight of Karl Adams now produces all the WTS literature.

In his book mentioned earlier, on pg 22, Ray Franz reveals the authors of the "Aid" book, published in a complete edition in 1971 [there was an earlier, incomplete edition released in 1970] These were: Ray Franz, Ed Dunlap, Lyman Swingle, Rheinhardt Lengtat, and John Wischuk.

Dunlap later wrote the "Commentary on James" released in 1979.

Ray Franz also tells us that he, along with Karl Adams and Ed Dunlap also wrote the manual "Organisation for Kingdom-Preaching and Disciple-Making" a sort of church instruction brochure oulining the various tiresome WTS procedures for doing just about anything.

Interestingly, Franz also points out that this "Writing Department" no longer has any of the "anointed" counted among its ranks. Which therefore means that the idea of the "anointed" providing the "food at the proper time" is nothing more than a polite fiction. All the writers who pen the WTS publications are mostly young turks who profess to be of the "Other Sheep" and appear to be more familiar with the nuances of the legal profession, rather than the Bible. Many of the "anointed" have often professed total surprise at any "new truth" devised by these new writers, rather than supposedly being the originators of this "food". A question of the "tail" wagging the dog, perchance. To the WTS, perception is more important than reality, and as long as the perception is maintained that all the "Food at the proper time" is coming from the "anointed" no explanations to the rank-and-file seems necessary. [ See Ray Franz's book" In Search of Christian Freedom" pgs 154 -164]

There is a web site maintained by a former Bethel supervisor, Randy Watters, called "Free Minds". Scrolling through there will provide you with the names of the current Writing Department members.

Hope this helps

Cheers

7

List of differences between 1968 & 1981 editions of the "Truth" book?

by cabasilas in

does anyone have a list of the differences between the 1968 and 1981 editions of the book "the truth that leads to eternal life"?

my recollection is that the changes in the 1981 edition were in relation to statements that could have been associated with 1975...as, for example, citations from the book "famine--1975.

does anyone have an exact list?.

moggy lover

Sorry.... I dont have a scanner....I'm a computer moron anyway and would probably start WW 3 by pressing a wrong damn button or something [or even transfer my non-existant bank account to some deposit in the Bahamas].

But I know just the [super]man for the job: Altlantis !!

Maybe if we holler LOUD enough he'll hear us and oblige. What that guy has on scan is simply unbelievable.

Cheers

7

List of differences between 1968 & 1981 editions of the "Truth" book?

by cabasilas in

does anyone have a list of the differences between the 1968 and 1981 editions of the book "the truth that leads to eternal life"?

my recollection is that the changes in the 1981 edition were in relation to statements that could have been associated with 1975...as, for example, citations from the book "famine--1975.

does anyone have an exact list?.

moggy lover

I am not sure if this helps, but the only other revision I can think of in the two editions of the "Truth" book is this quote from former US Secretary of State, Dean Acherson:

"Back in 1960, a former United States Secretary of State, Dean Acherson declared that our time is "a period of unequaled instability,unequaled violence" And he warned: "I know enough of what is going on to assure you that, in fifteen years from today this world is going to be too dangerous to live in" "

[This is a quote from the original 1968 edition, pg 9. It does'nt take an Einstein to work out that 15 years from 1960 falls smack into 1975 - The BIG YEAR for the WTS "profits"]

The revised edition published in 1981, edited this obviously embarrasing quote to read as follows:

"As reported back in 1960, a former United States Secretary of State, Dean Acherson declared that our time is '' a period of unequaled instability, unequaled violence'' Based on what he knew was then going on in the world it was his conclusion that soon '' this world is going to be too dangerous to live in '' Pg 9

Cheers

4

Having it all ways

by youcanhaveago in

when i was "in" an acquaintance said to me - you lot want it all ways , when the bible says the sign of the end is "wars and reports of wars "you grab that.when the bible says a cry of "peace and security" is a sign if the end you grab that.. contrasting signs but both a pointer to the end times.. did he have a point ?.

moggy lover

Yes I believe your friend did have a point. Like the Delphic Oracles in ancient Greece, the WT garnishes its "prophetic utterances" with liberal doses of pungent ambiguities. I remember in the mid 70s when the Middle East was a potboiler with the Arab Israel war, the WTS went almost beserk with dire warnings of a soon-to-come universal conflict.

In the mid 80s when the UN designated a certain year [84, I think] as the year of "Peace and Security" the WTS went almost hysterical with an anticipated realization of the soon-to-come universal conflict.

The WT publishes magazines with covers that coyly suggest: War- Is the end near? and: Peace- Is the end near? Having thus covered both bases how the hell can you lose?

In all this, I believe that the WTS has missed a basic biblical theme. The Bible never once exhorts its readers to anticipate the end-of-the-world as we know it. Or to calculate it. Or to be obsessed with it.

It exhorts them to await, with confidence, the Lord Jesus Christ, who promised He would come again. This is the event true Christians anticipate.

When will this be? Dunno.

Cheers

10

michael/jesus

by gspradling in

jw
friends

i know this has been discussed until you are all probably sick of it, but i have been trying to find a watchtower quote on exactly how michael became jesus.

i have googled it and checked my books throughly without any success.

thanks in advance

moggy lover

If you are looking for a WTS apologia on how they derive a Michael/Jesus relationsip, their latest publication "What does the Bible Really Teach" - [Subtitled: No, honest, this time we really, really got it right, promise - at least till the next edition] has an extensive section at the back in the appendix. Theres nothing new in there but it is comprehensive as you will get. If you don't have the book someone may be able to scan the relative pages for you. I believe it is also available for download at Reorganize.com.

For a rebuttal, there are several web sites available, such as MacGregor Ministries and others

Cheers